Commercializing Caving in Texas..

[Phil Winkler]

This is interesting....
http://www.hillcountryadventures.com/

[hewhocaves]

and cave-for-pay raises it's ugly head again...

back in the 90s, when I was writing that monthly article for the News I mentioned it to somoene at work. The one and only question they had for me was "how much was I getting paid for it?". Not unsurprisingly, he was aghast when I told him I wrote it for free. The 'discussion' eventually ended with me asking him how much his wife charged him for making dinner at home.

For some people it's all about the money and personal thrills.

Havin said all that, I'm not entirely against cave-for-pay, and realize that it does sort of have a place. But I've seen far too many operations that are shoestring at best, that trespass onto private property or neglect to mention to the landowner that the liability laws might change for him because money has changed hands and whose leaders have no clue about what to do when the inevitable rescue occurs.

john

[George Dasher]

Let's see...

$25 for rappelling and caving.

But $60 to learn to tie knots.

Strange...

[hewhocaves]

Let's see...

$25 for rappelling and caving.

But $60 to learn to tie knots.

Strange...

not really. one poor knot can turn a rappell into a free-fall
WHUMP-SPLAT!

or if its a big drop:
WHUMP.............................
.............
.........
......
...
................SPLAT!

lol

[NZcaver]

Let's see...

$25 for rappelling and caving.

But $60 to learn to tie knots.

Strange...

not really. one poor knot can turn a rappell into a free-fall
WHUMP-SPLAT!

or if its a big drop:
WHUMP.............................
.............
.........
......
...
................SPLAT!

lol

True - if you're setting the whole thing up yourself. But if you're a beginner, that's not really what you want when you pay someone to teach you how to rappel - is it?

When I (and most instructors) teach rappelling to novices, the FIRST STAGE is teaching them how to do it safely and comfortably - but NOT how to rig their own rappel. Big difference. The instructors are there to set up the system, outfit and check each participant, and tie the knots. I'm not saying novices shouldn't learn knots, just that I agree with George - I don't think it's appropriate to pay $60 for up to a "whole day" of learning to tie knots BEFORE your $25 "first rappel" experience.

Learning to rig and be responsible for your own rappelling setup (and for other people) is a whole different ballgame. That level of skill is more for those who have already mastered how to rappel, and wish to learn "everything else" - including how to instruct, perhaps. However, I consider novice vertical cavers to be a slight exception. They should be taught knots and rigging by their grotto or peers at an early stage - because self-reliance is a bit more critical in vertical caving than sport rappelling.

And by the way, when I say "teach rappelling" I am not inferring that I do it for money...

[hewhocaves]

I'm not saying novices shouldn't learn knots, just that I agree with George - I don't think it's appropriate to pay $60 for up to a "whole day" of learning to tie knots BEFORE your $25 "first rappel" experience.

i agree with george too. i was just saying that knots are important when you goo off and rappell on your own, that's all.

Learning to rig and be responsible for your own rappelling setup (and for other people) is a whole different ballgame. That level of skill is more for those who have already mastered how to rappel, and wish to learn "everything else" - including how to instruct, perhaps. However, I consider novice vertical cavers to be a slight exception. They should be taught knots and rigging by their grotto or peers at an early stage - because self-reliance is a bit more critical in vertical caving than sport rappelling.

agreed!

And by the way, when I say "teach rappelling" I am not inferring that I do it for money...

you'll notice from my first post that I'm not very much in favor of the cave-for-pay thing at all. and I wouldn't think that you would do it for money, anyway

John

[NZcaver]

you'll notice from my first post that I'm not very much in favor of the cave-for-pay thing at all. and I wouldn't think that you would do it for money, anyway

John

Well now, don't be jumping to conclusions too fast! If somebody wants to give me money for something I like doing anyway, who am I to say no? (Liabilities aside, of course)

[hewhocaves]

lol. you know. i wouldn't mind that either. especially if it was for doing nothing.

[novicequebeccaver]

I'm a novice caver (my experience is pretty much limited to some Quebec caves and the Mammoth cave wild cave tour), but I'm interested in the question of commercialization. I'm looking for a good place to learn vertical caving and map drawing next year in Quebec. Both courses I checked, map drawing with the Quebec speleological society and vertical caving with a school-affiliated group, charge. Previously I thought that this was normal, but by the posts on this board I get a different impression. Is this a sign of unprofessionnalism?[/url]

[hewhocaves]

I'm a novice caver (my experience is pretty much limited to some Quebec caves and the Mammoth cave wild cave tour), but I'm interested in the question of commercialization. I'm looking for a good place to learn vertical caving and map drawing next year in Quebec. Both courses I checked, map drawing with the Quebec speleological society and vertical caving with a school-affiliated group, charge. Previously I thought that this was normal, but by the posts on this board I get a different impression. Is this a sign of unprofessionnalism?[/url]

Okay... I didn't take French in high school (i took German - whole other story) and I don't see the Anglaise version of that page - so you'll have to clue me in on what it's saying. A few things off the top of my head:

1) Most of the cavers here cave in the US, so we are familiar with US caving practices. Caving in Europe has a whole different set of scoietal rules. It may be commonplace there to charge for these things and the end result may be some sort of certification (aka rescue training or cave diving in the US).

2) The fees may be to cover costs associated with the teaching and equipment. It may also be a part of the yearly membership. A high annual membership cost is not in and of itself indicative of anything (but will generate much debate amongst cavers) and there are arguments both for and agianst such membership fees. (again, a whole other argument)

3) there seem to be other choices as well:
http://www.cancaver.ca/docs/groups.htm#que
Of course, I can't recommend any of them because I don't know them at all.

4) Lastly, the NSS convention usually has a vertical workshop and a surveying workshop. (among a lot of other things) This year's event is in Washington state, but next year will be in Indiana.

john