An inadvertant advertisement in outdoor magazine

[NZcaver]

Directly quoting material without attribution is plaigarism, or stealing. As Cindy indicates, quoting short attributed passages for 'commentary' and for informative purposes is ok. NZ is partially incorrect in his quote above: see section a) of the website he cites. *Any* copying of another's work without their permission is copyright infringement. The 'criminal infringement' clause is what makes it actionable in court; it is in there to prevent nuisance lawsuits for mere pennies and to ensure the 'fair use' clause of copyright is maintained. Even though one cannot sue for criminal infringement of less than $1,000 or for non-commercial use without perimission, one can file *civil actions* (for example: cease and desist) over any infringement, or else the law has no teeth.

Yes - you're quite right. Sorry to be misleading by only commenting on the "criminal" aspects of copyright. Just to be clear - I don't advocate using someone else's copyrighted material without permission. That's not nice. I was just investigating what constitutes a serious criminal offense in the US, rather than a civil court sue-someone-to-cease-and-desist etc thing.

And now back to your regular program...

[bsignorelli]

The only cave related commercial I didn't like, was the car one where they rig the rope to the SUV and jump into some big hole and do a balls to the wall decent, with no rope pad or doing things the safe way. that I thnk gives a bad message, but that would have been a bad message on safety even if the car ad didn't have a cave in it

What was the problem with rigging to the vehicle? Put it in park...put the brake on and you should be good to go. Put chocks behind the wheel if need be. I didn't see anything else they could have rigged to in that photo. If that tieoff point is strong enough to tow something with then why wouldn't it be secure enough to bounce a pit from?

Maybe they could have parked the car perpendicular to the cave so the rope pulled on it from the side and it wouldn't be able to roll in that direction.

And if recall properly...they were using something like the rollers shown on IMO's website (see here http://caves.org/imo/emergency.htm) or something similar to this Petzl item http://tinyurl.com/jtovl.

I'd like to think that those rollers are WAY better that what 99% of cavers normally use to pad the rope over an edge. :)

Didn't they have helmets on too? And dirty cave clothing?

[Scott McCrea]

Here's the Nissan Xterra commercial in question: (4.6mb, Quicktime)

No helmets. No rope pad or rollers. Possible inadvertant wheel chock.

If you pause it and advance frame by frame, you can see the rappeller clipping in an ATC. This scene also has some small print that says, "Professional Athlete under controlled conditions." I don't recognize the rope but it looks static. He appears to be wearing a rescue type harness. It has a sewn in D-ring. He also has, clipped to the left side of his harness, a large camming type piece of pro. He has on a chest harness that is clipped together with a biner on his chest. A couple runners and biners across his shoulder.

His partner has another rope around his shoulder. Several quick draws on his harness. A chalk bag. A cordalette (sp?).

Ascending gear is not shown.

I'd have to say this is not best depiction of safe caving practices. But, I've seen worse.

[NZcaver]

Here's the Nissan Xterra commercial in question: (4.6mb, Quicktime)

Thanks for posting the link, Scott. NOW I remember that commercial! Like you say - not the best depiction of caving safely. I especially love the "leave a few feet of slack and jump backwards over the edge" attitude.

If the makers of that commercial used any technical advisers at all, they must have been rock climbers who knew NOTHING about caving. It wouldn't have killed them to have a caving adviser on the shoot. They might have got some advice like "hey guys, why don't you lose that useless climbing pro, clip on a proper descender, and put on this helmet/headlamp?"

I guess this is one reason why those stunt guys make the big bucks.

So I will revise my earlier comment on this thread - yes, at least one caving-related advertisement DOES bother me a little...

[caverdoc]

Back to the original topic: that is a cool ad for Surefire. When I first saw it I wondered if Willie had some input in the production.

Willie Hunt brought quite a few Surefire lights up to Montana when we were mapping Lost Creek Siphon. Each of us had one to illuminate distant ceiling holes (checking for leads). Willie had a special "light saber" rig that was truly awesome, and really used up the batteries.

Sitting on my dining room table right now are probably five Surefires. I always take one to clinic for illuminating throat/oral cavity, especially during flu season. Great lights, in sum I probably own over ten SF lights including specialized weapons system lights. Been using them since my Army time in the early 90's.

Doc Kennedy

[Phil Winkler]

The pit in the Nissan ad is Devil's Sinkhole in Texas and that method of rigging is always used as far as I know. There just isn't anything else even close.

[NZcaver]

The pit in the Nissan ad is Devil's Sinkhole in Texas and that method of rigging is always used as far as I know. There just isn't anything else even close.

Looking at pictures of Devil's Sinkhole on line, I would say you're right. For what it's worth, I don't have a problem rigging off vehicles - I've done it several times. It's all the "other stuff" in the ad that's a bit scary.


>>>So back to the original topic - are there many people out there (besides caverdoc) who actually use Surefire lights for caving? I took a quick look on line, and they don't appear to make any headlamps. What I found was a bunch of flashlights that seem quite high-priced, compared with the rest of the market (like BD, PT, UK, Pelican, etc). Most of their more compact models use the CR123A batteries which are also rather pricey, and (as far as I know) are not available in a rechargeable. (I prefer to use rechargeables in most of my electronics.) The flashlights they do advertise as being rechargeable use some custom pack called a B90.

Any comments from people who use them?

[Mike Rz]

and the #1 "most significant safe caving practice they forgot to show": putting the gear selector lever in "R" (for rappel)

[Herman Miller]

the surefire has its place in caving significantly in the largest of chambers as these puppies throw out the light... I get them issued to me all the time and some have only had a burn time around 30 min and yet the light they throw out will temporarily blind someone at night and they'll get hot enough to blister skin if held in a bare hand..... some models i should say

[Scott McCrea]

Surefires are the Ferrari's of the flashlight world. A high performance light. Police and the like use them to temporarily disable someone just by shining the light. And they certainly will light up a cave. I caved with a guy that had one of Willie's contraptions at Fern a few years ago. When I was at the top of Surprise Pit and they shined it up from the bottom, 440' away, it was like the sun came up. Awesomely bright. And they are tough as nails.

[NZcaver]

Surefires are the Ferrari's of the flashlight world. A high performance light. Police and the like use them to temporarily disable someone just by shining the light. And they certainly will light up a cave...

Can't say that disabling someone is high on my list of priorities for a caving light, but I won't rule it out...

Most of my 1-to-3 watt high intensity LEDs can be a little blinding too. I've even seen cops using the exact same little 1 watt LED flashlight that I got from Wal Mart for about $20! And then there's all those big Maglites they've been using for years. But if your company/department/whatever wants to foot the bill for a Surefire "Ferrari of flashlights" - great! Those little suckers must really eat up batteries, though.

Of course, if someone wants to send me a free Surefire to trial in the cave environment - I won't say no...

[bsignorelli]

NOW I remember that commercial!

Was there a print ad version of this too? I might go look back in some old Backpacker Magazines to see b/c thats not what I remembered.

Like you say - not the best depiction of caving safely.

<nod> Yeah...lotsa stuff wrong in that one.

[rchrds]

Yep- there was a print version- it was up on my fridge for the longest time. and I think the print version looked more like cavers, though I cant say why- I'm pretty sure they did have rope pads in that one.

J

[Squirrel Girl]

and the #1 "most significant safe caving practice they forgot to show": putting the gear selector lever in "R" (for rappel)

[Lava]

Surefire doesn't make any headlamps - yet. They are working on a 5W LED design, but I have no idea when it will be out. You can bet it will be awesome. For more than a decade I have used custom headlamps designed by Willie, and they have always been a cut above anything available commercially. Surefire got their hands on the master when they hired him, and you can bet that any lights with his design input will be top notch.