An inadvertant advertisement in outdoor magazine

[Herman Miller]

Just wanted to point out the advertisement for surefire flashlights on pg 78 of Outdoor Magazine. the advertisement looks to be on target displaying a gentleman with a hemet with two mounted lights and one handheld "surefire" light in his hand peering down a partially waterfilled passage the quote was pretty good but if I wrote it here someone might scream copyright.... if only a link for caves.org was at the bottom :)

[Scott McCrea]

I saw that too. I thought it was a well done ad. Really gets the point across.

BTW, Surefire lights are product of caver engineering. Caver/big room photographer Willie Hunt is an engineer there.

[Cheryl Jones]

the quote was pretty good but if I wrote it here someone might scream copyright.

Not if you credit the source and don't claim it as your own.

....and the quote is...

Cheryl

[Herman Miller]

and the quote from the surefire advertisement states " if a work of art 100 million years in the making takes your breath away, you should see what happens when your lights go out." a second quote reads " its a feat just to get to a place like this. which means you want a light that lets you see whats really there. it also means, if your light quits, your dead. because this far underground, you cant move safely, you cant find your way out, and nobody will hear your screams."

there you have it :)

[Cheryl Jones]

Cool!

[wendy]

When I first saw that ad I was a little dissappointed, I was flipping thru the magazine, and saw the photo of the cave and thought it was a cool article on caves

[ScottM]

That Ad has also been shown in Popular Science magazine for the last few months.

[NZcaver]

When I first saw that ad I was a little dissappointed, I was flipping thru the magazine, and saw the photo of the cave and thought it was a cool article on caves

Why were you "initially disappointed"? I'm just curious - I've heard other cavers say they've been disappointed/upset by products being advertised in conjunction with caves/caving. I can't say that kind of thing has ever bothered me, but perhaps other cavers have a different take on this..?

[Cindy Heazlit]

the quote was pretty good but if I wrote it here someone might scream copyright.

Not if you credit the source and don't claim it as your own.

This statement on copyright isn't true. People seem to think that they can use text, credit the source, and be OK. Nope - it is still copyright violation. You are, however, allowed to quote the text for the purpose of commentary, which is what is happening on this thread. So bremen66 is OK on that context.

[Scott McCrea]

This statement on copyright isn't true. People seem to think that they can use text, credit the source, and be OK. Nope - it is still copyright violation. You are, however, allowed to quote the text for the purpose of commentary, which is what is happening on this thread. So bremen66 is OK on that context.

True. And, I bet Surefire doesn't mind one bit if we talk about their ads or products. Ask any marketing person what make a great ad, they'll say people talking about it.

[wendy]

When I first saw that ad I was a little dissappointed, I was flipping thru the magazine, and saw the photo of the cave and thought it was a cool article on caves

Why were you "initially disappointed"? I'm just curious - I've heard other cavers say they've been disappointed/upset by products being advertised in conjunction with caves/caving. I can't say that kind of thing has ever bothered me, but perhaps other cavers have a different take on this..?

not disappointed that it was an ad with a cave in it, but sad that it wasn't the front page of an article on caving.

The only cave related commercial I didn't like, was the car one where they rig the rope to the SUV and jump into some big hole and do a balls to the wall decent, with no rope pad or doing things the safe way. that I thnk gives a bad message, but that would have been a bad message on safety even if the car ad didn't have a cave in it

[Mike Cato]

and jump into some big hole and do a balls to the wall decent,

Uh huh huh huh. You said "balls to the wall".



Well, they did have that metal set of rollers thingee instead of a rope pad...

[NZcaver]

the quote was pretty good but if I wrote it here someone might scream copyright.

Not if you credit the source and don't claim it as your own.

This statement on copyright isn't true. People seem to think that they can use text, credit the source, and be OK. Nope - it is still copyright violation. You are, however, allowed to quote the text for the purpose of commentary, which is what is happening on this thread. So bremen66 is OK on that context.

Sorry to swerve off topic, but according to the US Copyright Office the only criminal infringements of copyright occur when somebody infringes "willfully for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain", or "by the reproduction or distribution...of copyright works which have a total retail value of more than $1,000."

Plus any "Fraudulent Copyright Notice", "Fraudulent Removal of Copyright Notice", or "False Representation" (in regard to a copyright registration application) - is also an offense. (Yes, I got curious and decided to read-up on this.) See http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506

So there certainly shouldn't be any issues with this little thread anyway...

[NZcaver]

not disappointed that it was an ad with a cave in it, but sad that it wasn't the front page of an article on caving.

Oh, I see what you mean. But advertising photos probably pay better for the photographer...

The only cave related commercial I didn't like, was the car one where they rig the rope to the SUV and jump into some big hole and do a balls to the wall decent, with no rope pad or doing things the safe way. that I thnk gives a bad message, but that would have been a bad message on safety even if the car ad didn't have a cave in it

I recall thinking that the "balls to the wall" cave rappel sequence wasn't exactly "realistic", but at least they were wearing helmets (I think!)

[Edit] I was wrong - they weren't wearing helmets. Bad cavers!

[Teresa]

the quote was pretty good but if I wrote it here someone might scream copyright.

Not if you credit the source and don't claim it as your own.

This statement on copyright isn't true. People seem to think that they can use text, credit the source, and be OK. Nope - it is still copyright violation. You are, however, allowed to quote the text for the purpose of commentary, which is what is happening on this thread. So bremen66 is OK on that context.

Sorry to swerve off topic, but according to the US Copyright Office the only criminal infringements of copyright occur when somebody infringes "willfully for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain", or "by the reproduction or distribution...of copyright works which have a total retail value of more than $1,000."

Directly quoting material without attribution is plaigarism, or stealing. As Cindy indicates, quoting short attributed passages for 'commentary' and for informative purposes is ok. NZ is partially incorrect in his quote above: see section a) of the website he cites. *Any* copying of another's work without their permission is copyright infringement. The 'criminal infringement' clause is what makes it actionable in court; it is in there to prevent nuisance lawsuits for mere pennies and to ensure the 'fair use' clause of copyright is maintained. Even though one cannot sue for criminal infringement of less than $1,000 or for non-commercial use without perimission, one can file *civil actions* (for example: cease and desist) over any infringement, or else the law has no teeth.