Interesting chat on ukCaving Forum: Decline in Caver Numbers

[hewhocaves]

I'm not sure I understand the concern for massive numbers of members here. I look at the explosive number of rock climbers and scuba divers and all I see is the massive wear and tear on the environment. And cliffs and coral are much easier to replenish than caves!

I would much prefer a smaller organization of dedicated cavers than a massivve unbreall group of people who simply stomp through the underground. Part of what I found to be special about caving was that it wasn't simply "pay X dollars and go." You had to work for it with your grotto, the landowner, etc... Ultimately, I find there is a greater sense of satisfaction for something accomplished than simply be writing a check.

I hope caving never becomes as fashionable as, say, climbing Mt. Everest. Or if it is, that I at least own my own cave and can keep it pristine while coorporate society destroys the rest.

[Ralph E. Powers]

how about... take your kids caving! If you dont have kids, then get busy making some new cavers!

Hell, I'm all for that too...

Uhh, honey... c'mere for a minnit (or sixty) will ya... there's not enough cavers in the world.

[Roppelcaver]

Hmmm. I am not advocating zillions of cavers, although I used climbing as an example of an activity that has the reverse trend to what caving has.

My observation is that we do not even have enough cavers to replace what we are losing. I noted possible reasons for that, but from the standpoint of project caving at Mammoth Cave this is certainly the phenomenon.

Some might say it is situational, due to a result of a stifling organizational structure. But, our groups cover the full gamut -- We have the super organized outings, and we also have trips that are completely ad hoc and unstructured.

In any event, we are aware of this and try extra hard to mentor new folks into our projects (and they can be new cavers, too). It still remains a struggle.

Knowing how to remedy this problem presumes we know the cause, which we don't. I do think that our low-profile approach is a contributor (this could be a good or bad thing). Personally, I think too low a profile can contribute to trashed caves due to lack of public awareness. I think we are below the threshhold of healthy awareness, but that is only my opinion.

[Evan G]

Being a Caver and a Mountaineer/Climbing I find it interesting when cavers start talking about Climbers. The American Alpine Club as a total of 8600 members ... that is it! What is the NSS up to in membership wise? They also struggle with how the members are declining. Because like many us that live in the popular areas for Climbering/Mountaineering we have seen something very simple. The outdoor fad is over and the X-ers/Dudes & Dudets are fading into the background. It was nice this year to be up on the Grand Teton and not be mobbed by gapers/tourons/and someone with mad summit fever.

I always felt that the core group of any organization are the one that stick around for the long trem. What I call the real cavers/climbers/mountaineers

[Roppelcaver]

Mr Kver, that is an interesting observation.

I, too, do lots of stuff in the mountains, but have not seen quite that same type of decline. I think part of the reason is the mixing of the "rock-climbers" and "alpinists" where I frequent (Cascades). There are still tons of "rock climbers" that have migrated from the gyms to the cliffs, and I run into them a lot. True, these are not real outdoors people, but they crowd the landscape.

Maybe I have not thought about the differernces in traditional versus sport climbers, but I have noticed a rapid drop in the traditional climbers.

Anyway.

I see the Access Fund has strong membership (maybe these are not the true outdoors people, as you illustrate citing the example of the AAC). In caving, the SCC seems to be very successful. That might be an exception, as the SCC has done a lot of work to re-open popular caves (that mainstream appeal that drives cash), in addition to protecting and securing threatened caves. I sort of see the SCC and the Access Fund as comprable and compare these to the NSS's approach. The NSS does not seek out the glamor caves to manage; I think we respond based on "need" and grass-roots initiatives.

At Mammoth Cave, I have observed a slow but steady fall-off of new "project caver types". Maybe we are not charming enough. I don't know. But it is discouraging. The AAC may be similar in that they largely want the serious alpinists -- like project caving wants serious cavers. They are not appearing as rapidly as the old farts disappear.

Who knows, but your perspective is an enlightening one that I appreciate.

[Caver1402]

I know I'm only one person, but as far as Mammoth is concerned, I am completely hooked. My first CRF trip was last May and I've since gone in September and over New Year's. I'm planning to go again in April and May. Alas, I don't live nearby, but rest assured you've all got me helplessly hooked on that darned area.

Speaking of cavers making cavers ... hopefully a caver + non-caver has the potential to = a little caver. (My husband doesn't cave, but when we have little kiddies they will be joining mommy as she attempts to foster their love for caves and caving)

[Roppelcaver]

Cavergirl,

Yes you are one person; we just need more people like you! The work around Mammoth Cave is pretty compelling and many who come are not disappointed.

[Evan G]

Just so that you know Mr Roppel Caver:

I'm also a project caver and understand the concerns that you stated. I once put this on a website I design about year ago. Because a friend, wanted my view point on how to direct a project, because he was having a hard time with managing his project and people. I will forewarn you that my “Classification of Helpersâ€

[NZcaver]

I'm not sure I understand the concern for massive numbers of members here. I look at the explosive number of rock climbers and scuba divers and all I see is the massive wear and tear on the environment. And cliffs and coral are much easier to replenish than caves!

I would much prefer a smaller organization of dedicated cavers than a massivve unbreall group of people who simply stomp through the underground. Part of what I found to be special about caving was that it wasn't simply "pay X dollars and go." You had to work for it with your grotto, the landowner, etc... Ultimately, I find there is a greater sense of satisfaction for something accomplished than simply be writing a check.

I hope caving never becomes as fashionable as, say, climbing Mt. Everest. Or if it is, that I at least own my own cave and can keep it pristine while coorporate society destroys the rest.

I don't think anyone's talking about a "massivve unbreall group of people who simply stomp through the underground". We're talking about promoting the survival of caving, and cave study/conservation.

Giving birth to little cavers is all well and good, but what we really need is a greater public understanding of the beauty/fragility/importance of the cave environment. Some pay-to-cave operations help provide this, as do some youth organizations and educational institutions. Other people get 'educated' through TV documentaries. I think grottos should play their part too - and many already do, I'm sure.

Your comment "You had to work for it (caving) with your grotto, the landowner, etc..." is interesting. Yes - landowner relations are something to continually maintain and improve upon. But "working for it" with your own grotto sounds slightly elitist to me - ie, "You're not one of the *in crowd* yet, so you don't get to go in any cool caves". Was that what you meant? Because apart from legitimate safety reasons, that's complete BS in my opinion. Yes - train new cavers within your grotto (eg vertical techniques, if applicable), but don't exclude them! That's a great way to turn new people away from caving.

Though obviously well-intentioned, the desire by some for "a smaller organization of dedicated cavers" might eventually cause our extinction. But I really hope not. Like it or not, 'casual' cavers and other recreational/sport cavers also play a role in the big caving picture, as do commercial cave tours. It's not always just about the project cavers...

[graveleye]

Though obviously well-intentioned, the desire by some for "a smaller organization of dedicated cavers" might eventually cause our extinction.

good point... seems like there is a fulcrum on which there must be a balance lest it teeter - too far in either direction is negative.

[Teresa]

"Making new little cavers' from scratch isn't the answer. More people=more demand for housing/natural resources=new demands on the environment=more development pressure on caves and karst.

It has been my experience where both adults are cavers, they are more likely to have either no or 1 child, whereas non-cavers or semi-caver couples (esp. if it is man who is the caver) they have 'normal" numbers of children.

What we need to do is convert children already here...
Suggest reading "Last Child in the Woods" by Richard Louv if you've not done so. Right there is the problem.

[Caver1402]

Yeah, we definitely won't be replenishing the ranks ... I plan on starting out with one child and seeing how it goes from there.

My situation is backwards though ... I am the caver and my husband will never do it. I do try to entice some of my friends though, the ones that have caver potential. I know having children isn't the answer since obviously, you are right, there are plenty of people already here who could be really great cavers.

That looks like a great book ... children today are indulged with far too many "things". I remember playing outside without toys, but with just whatever was around ... sticks, rocks, trees, brooks, etc. But that is another thread, and not really caving related.

[graveleye]

"Making new little cavers' from scratch isn't the answer.

I think you guys were taking me a bit too seriously!! :)

[Caver1402]

Oh, I thought it was my post they were referring to! Ha ha.

[hewhocaves]

I'm glad to hear that, at least in some areas, it seems that the X-sport climbing fad is lessening some. Maybe they've all moved inside to the climbing walls or whichever.

In contrasting and comparing climbing and caving there is often one very important overloooked feature which I think will prevent caving from ever being as big a fad. And that is: mud. Mud will inevitably and eventually turn all your new, shiny color-coordinated caving gear brown. Mud is also one of the things that keeps a fair number of women away (at least the perception of mud) which keeps a fair number of men away. (Speciifcally, those men who do things just to meet women). Mud is not very photogenic compared to climbing and, given enough of the stuff, we all literally look alike.

Claustrophobia is the other biggie, from my experiences, and there's really nothing you can do about that. But between the two, it shies enough people away at the start to make a dent in the overall population.

Which means if we want to recruit, we have to do it harder from other sources. Recently, I went back to grad school in WV and joined one fo the student grottoes there. I've been a member only part of the year, but wow, what turnover. The turnover is partly because there's only so many things a college student can do over the course of the year and some students just like to try everything once and be done with it. Right now the year is winding down and we're down to about ten people. At the height of the year (Novemberish) we had soemthing close to fourty. And from what I'm told, we'll have that number again next year. People show up. They are curious.

Part of the problem is at our end - we need to be better at keeping them. Part of the problem is at your end. Think of your local college grotto as a hook. We hold em' but you have to reel them in. West Virginia just hosted its 9th YTR (young timer's reunion) and only got about 60 people showing. Spread across the dozen or so student grottoes in the virginia - midwest area, that's not very much (and the caves were excellent).
I participated in a 'club day' recently, and we got something close to twenty people showing interest. Maybe three or four will actually go caving. That's the kind of attrition rate that we're seeing on campus and it's probably universal. Kick up those numbers by just five percent and you might solve your problem.

So what can we do? I've noticed the biggest thing for college kids is money - they're looking to do things cheaply and more cheaply. So, the big places like CRF, WVACS and a bunch of conservancies could put us up for a couple of nights and eat the cost. The second thing is trips. Some SGs don't live close to the good caves and the ones that do often don't know of the caves anyway. So maybe once a year offer to lead your local SG to someplace really cool. Maybe make a weekend of it - do some light work on day one and a fun trip on day two. I've noticed that SG trips ted to be really 'led', that is, its like a tour group more than a bunch of cavers. Which is weird because i would have pegged it in the exact opposite direction - too many daredevils. But not so, apprantly.

Anyway, that's only the start of a few thoughts. The last thought would be that if you were associated with a college that didn't have a student grotto see what can be done about creating one. and if it's an outdoor club, offer to introduce them to caving.

John