GORP's Top Ten U.S. Caves

[Evan G]

I always heard it referred to as Apache like the Indian tribe, but it mite be different. During those days I was more into the exploration than the geology. But of course the more I got into caving the more I realize that the better you can read the rock the better off you are able to find new cave.

[Cindy Heazlit]

The cave list is perfect for a sport caver or tourist caving, but what about hardcore caving or exploration caving?

Lechuguilla...

Lechuguilla isn't exactly a technically challenging cave. It is long, so endurance comes in to play. But I'm not so sure about the hardcore part.

The first time I went in, I kept thinking "where's the hard part?"

Long is not neccesarily hard, but long can become difficult when exhaustion rises.

I'm also hesitant to create a hardcore list. That's all we need. A list of caves so wanna-be's can have another notch on their gun. And a whole slew of accidents from people wanting to check off something on their list.

[Tlaloc]

3. Miller, MT

Mill Creek?

[NZcaver]

Lechuguilla isn't exactly a technically challenging cave. It is long, so endurance comes in to play. But I'm not so sure about the hardcore part...

I see where you're coming from, but I have to politely disagree. Any cave in which you negotiate vertical drops does provide, by definition, some degree of technical challenge. There are other technical factors to consider as well, of course - but that's the simplest example. I'm not sure about using the word "hardcore" either, but as far as I know Lech is definitely still an exploration cave...

[hewhocaves]

I'm also hesitant to create a hardcore list. That's all we need. A list of caves so wanna-be's can have another notch on their gun. And a whole slew of accidents from people wanting to check off something on their list.

i totally agree. however, i suspect that the macho cavers already have that list amongst themselves. fortunately, many of the "hardcore" caves are open only to surveying or some other kind of "purpose" trip. I've discovered over the years that the last thing macho anythings want to do is use their skills for others.

macho spelunkers, on the other hand, are a concern. fortunatley for us "hardcore" for spelunkers is anything where you need three sepereate sources of beer. its hard to lug all that deep into any hole in the ground that doesn't have two lanes and a set of toll booths at each end.

And a final note about "hardcore" caves. The most significant problem with coming up with a list like this is that everyone views caves differently. The difference is most obvious between tall people and small people. Tall people would be able to talkle most vertical caves (chimneys, climbing etc... because of their reach whereas their long limbs would be quite a problem in small, narrow, twisty cave. Then you get into chest size, metabolism, etc... and a unified list is almost impossible.

john

[NZcaver]

...macho spelunkers, on the other hand, are a concern. fortunatley for us "hardcore" for spelunkers is anything where you need three sepereate sources of beer...

...its hard to lug all that deep into any hole in the ground that doesn't have two lanes and a set of toll booths at each end...

I don't know about that - even spelunk'd in Arizona? I bumped into a couple of guys one day that had completed their long journey up the dirt road to the cave with some cigarettes, chewing tobacco, and a six pack. At least they had a Maglite, I suppose...

I have to agree with you and Cindy about the whole "hardcore" thing having some negative connotations. Since Kver33 referred to tourist caving and sport caving in the same category, perhaps by saying "hardcore" he just meant exploration and other project caving?

[hewhocaves]

yeah, i've seen drunk people doing some scary caving and sober people carrying an inordinate amount of alcohol underground. scary. but at least they were practicing safe spelunking. (hmmm... that sounds like an April fools article for the NSS News.)