Cave Location(s) laws?

[GypsumWolf]

Are there any laws against giving out cave locations?

[Dwight Livingston]

Natural laws, maybe? Like not getting the toothpaste back into the tube. Certainly there's a Caving Forum law against it. As far as those state and federal things go, I know of none.

Dwight

[Anonymous_Coward]

The Federal Cave Resource Protection Act (FCRPA) was passed to protect significant caves on federal land in the U.S. One of the provisions of FCRPA is that certain information about caves (including locational information) is exempt from Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests. So, cave managers can use FCRPA to keep sensitive cave locations from being distibuted to the general public.

This is the only law I know of that deals with cave locations. It doesn't prohibit giving out locations. It protects the distribution of locational information.

[speloman]

None That I know of either. I have a personal law not to give out cave locations, as I am sure most cavers do. I have seen websites on the net that give very some descriptive locations and GPS of a few caves that I know. Very sad because now these very pretty caves have been de cloked and are now victims of SPELUNKERS!!!! That is the reason I joined the NSS. To get with other cavers and do it that way. I would rather Hunt for the cave (with others of coarse) or go with a grotto, than to look up on a website with pictures of people using the dreaded Hemp rope and groping formations. I think some states have cave protection acts that prohibit the giving cave locations but I duno Have to look it up. But I know it is usually a "law" of cavers to not disclose cave locals unless they are taking a group to said cave, and I am sure that they go through the full back ground check . Looks like I need to do some research Very good post though.

[Roppelcaver]

This is not a pilosophical issue in my view.

- If you own the cave, you can do what you wish
- If you do not own the cave, it is not your right to disclose locations.

If you have permission, the philosophical issue is whether you should or not (different topic than the original question).

On Federal Lands, you can be in quite a lot of trouble for disclosing locations covered under the FCRPA. For caves not covered under the FCRPA, the potential ire of the the unit should be sufficiently compelling.

On private lands, I think you owe it to the owner to not create a nuisance for him/her by giving out cave locations, unless you know for a fact that the ower is okay with this (the owner might find it okay to catalog the cave for research purposes, but not to submit in guidebook). It is not the caver's decision.

I know of more than one occurrence where the owner closed the cave simply because they found it on the web and were appalled. And, arguement can be made that a civil suit is possible if wanton disclosure, against an owners wishes, results in real damages.

Although we are passionate about caves, if the situation is kept in perspective that we are guests of the owner, then the issue becomes quite black and white.

[Ronal Kerbo]

I am the National Cave Management Coordinator for the National Park Service and would like to comment on cave location information and the Federal Cave Resources Protection Act (FCRPA):
The FCRPA does in fact prohibit federal employees from giving out cave location information unless the requester provides certain information. The law does not prevent individual citizens from distributing information that they may already have from old topo maps etc. If however you are working on a project on certain federal lands (the FCRPA only applies to agencies within the Department of the Interior or the Department of Agriculture) your permit would most likely address location information confidentiality. For more in formation on the FCRPA look here:
http://www2.nature.nps.gov/geology/caves/acts_regs.htm

To more fully understand the intent of the FCRPA be sure to look at the regulations and not just the Act.

There are at least two other Acts protecting cave locations: 1): the Hawaii Cave Protection Law of 2002, which states in part: § -10 Confidentiality. (a) Where the department determines in consultation with the owner that dissemination of knowledge of cave location or resources could be detrimental to their protection, then the government information on the cave location and sensitive resources shall be kept confidential.

(b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), where an owner still believes that dissemination of knowledge or cave location or resources could be detrimental to their protection, then the department shall keep all government information on the cave location and sensitive cave resources confidential.

And in the Philippines there is a 2): National Caves and Cave Resources Management and Protection Act which contains the following regarding locations: Sec. 6. Information Concerning the Nature and Location of Significant Caves - Information concerning the nature and specific location of a potentially significant cave shall not be made available to the public within one (1) year after its discovery by the DENR, during which time the DENR in coordination with the DOT, the National Museum, the National Historical Institute, concerned LGUs the scientific community and the academe shall assess its archaeological, cultural, ecological, historical and scientific value, unless a written request is made and the Secretary determines that disclosure of such information will further the purpose of this Act and will not create a substantial risk of harm, theft or destruction on such cave.

The written request shall contain, among others, the following:
(a) a description of the geographic site for which the information is sought;
(b) an explanation of the purpose for which the information is sought;

(c) an assurance or undertaking satisfactory to the Secretary that adequate measures are to be taken to protect the confidentiality of such information and to ensure the protection of the cave from destruction by vandalism and unauthorized use.

[cave rat]

No laws that I know of here. Best way I know of is to join a local grotto and go caving with them. I, myself, do not give out my directions, unless I have been caving with you for a good while and I know you are not going to use the information in a negative way.

Another good way is to join your state cave survey. But the only way to do that is be a NSS member. The Alabama Cave Survey requires you to be a NSS member for 2 or more years or have 2 NSS members sign for you.

[Cindy Heazlit]

Several state cave laws prohibit the distribution of cave location information by their respective agencies.

For example, the Hawaii Cave Protection Act states:

§ -10 Confidentiality. (a) Where the department <of land and natural resources> determines in consultation with the owner that dissemination of knowledge of cave location or resources could be detrimental to their protection, then the government information on the cave location and sensitive resources shall be kept confidential.

(b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), where an owner still believes that dissemination of knowledge or cave location or resources could be detrimental to their protection, then the department shall keep all government information on the cave location and sensitive cave resources confidential.

I know that I have signed confidentiality agreements with the Army, The National Park Service, the Forest Service, California State Parks, and several land owners.

As a cave owner myself, I'd be super upset if someone disclosed the locations of the caves I own outside of my local caving buddies.

[bsignorelli]

Another good way is to join your state cave survey. But the only way to do that is be a NSS member.

Not all state cave surveys have NSS membership requirements nor are all state cave surveys affiliated with the NSS.

[GypsumWolf]

Ok.. Just so you all can know a little more about me to ease any worry you may have of me posting or asking for lots of cave locations online:
I am a member of the NSS and I just recently sent an application in to the SCCI and I am a member of the Chattanooga grotto. I have also been certified by Bruce Smith of On Rope One in vertical training and I am in 2 caving classes at my University and I have acquired over 200 cave locations + I also own the books "Caves of Tennessee" (Barr) and "Descriptions of Tennessee Caves". I am pro conserving caves. I am not pro for putting tons of cave locations on the Internet for everyone to see.

Question: What is your opinions about the books I mentioned? Do you think they should be sold or not sold?

[mgmills]

Ok.. Just so you all can know a little more about me to ease any worry you may have of me posting or asking for lots of cave locations online:
I am a member of the NSS and I just recently sent an application in to the SCCI and I am a member of the Chattanooga grotto. I have also been certified by Bruce Smith of On Rope One in vertical training and I am in 2 caving classes at my University and I have acquired over 200 cave locations + I also own the books "Caves of Tennessee" (Barr) and "Descriptions of Tennessee Caves". I am pro conserving caves. I am not pro for putting tons of cave locations on the Internet for everyone to see.

Question: What is your opinions about the books I mentioned? Do you think they should be sold or not sold?

Sold to who? Cavers? The general public? Anyone?

The important thing to remember is that just because you know where a cave is doesn't give you permission to go. A responsible person will check to see what the "status" of the cave is for visitation. Status of caves - which ones are open and which ones are closed changes. That is why being part of a grotto is a good thing. . . more people to pool information.

My personal opinion is that if a person is interested in caves we as cavers should "train" them in the ways of responsible caving. . . however, we will probably never all agree on what that is either

[GypsumWolf]

Ok.. Just so you all can know a little more about me to ease any worry you may have of me posting or asking for lots of cave locations online:
I am a member of the NSS and I just recently sent an application in to the SCCI and I am a member of the Chattanooga grotto. I have also been certified by Bruce Smith of On Rope One in vertical training and I am in 2 caving classes at my University and I have acquired over 200 cave locations + I also own the books "Caves of Tennessee" (Barr) and "Descriptions of Tennessee Caves". I am pro conserving caves. I am not pro for putting tons of cave locations on the Internet for everyone to see.

Question: What is your opinions about the books I mentioned? Do you think they should be sold or not sold?

Sold to who? Cavers? The general public? Anyone?

The important thing to remember is that just because you know where a cave is doesn't give you permission to go. A responsible person will check to see what the "status" of the cave is for visitation. Status of caves - which ones are open and which ones are closed changes. That is why being part of a grotto is a good thing. . . more people to pool information.

My personal opinion is that if a person is interested in caves we as cavers should "train" them in the ways of responsible caving. . . however, we will probably never all agree on what that is either

Well, what do you think if they were sold to cavers? and what do you think if they were sold to general public like they are?

I understand that it is a good idea to check the "status" of a cave before I go in.... Thank God for DCG Closed/Limited Access List :)

[Vader]

This is not a pilosophical issue in my view.

- If you own the cave, you can do what you wish
- If you do not own the cave, it is not your right to disclose locations.

I know I am behind the times, but I got a great laugh out of this post.

[Teresa]

]

Sold to who? Cavers? The general public? Anyone?

The important thing to remember is that just because you know where a cave is doesn't give you permission to go. A responsible person will check to see what the "status" of the cave is for visitation.

Yeah! You Rock, Martha! I've been yelling this at the top of my lungs for twenty years. Finally, some other people are hearing and repeating this.

Well, what do you think if they were sold to cavers? and what do you think if they were sold to general public like they are?

Hmmm...Cavers are the general public. Anything which is banned to the general public is banned to us. I don't want anyone to say what I can or cannot read. Cave locations aren't exactly classified information. How can one tell what the person seeking a book is wanting it for? Maybe a relative wrote the book, and they want a copy. Maybe they heard it is nice and thick and good to press flowers. Go lightly when you set yourself up as an expert and think you know what is good for a third party you have never met.

[Roppelcaver]

I am glad "Flash" was humored by the concept that the cave owner should be ultimate arbiter concerning their privacy and property. I know that this is an unfamiliar concept to some -- that the owner should actually have a say.

As a de facto steward of part of a giant cave -- de facto because I neither own any entrances or have any legal right to grant/deny permission. -- I have seen the up- and downsides of these conflicting philosophies.

The owners (many) have "granted" us access to the cave, and in exchange for that we respect these owners properties and whatever capricious rules they wish to impose. When they feel these rules have been violated, we are held accountable. At one time we made trips reports available to the caving public (on this website as a matter of fact). Unfortunately, at least one individual used this information to sneak into the cave and then advertised it, which generated more traffic and more concern. At least one entrance to the cave was almost closed as a result -- we were creating a nuisance and a liability for this owner with unauthorized traffic. But, we pulled the reports and made it clear that we would do nothing to generate anymore random traffic.

We did not underestimate the owner's worry about the cave, but we underestimated the impact of making information public. No, we did not publish a cave location, but we may as well have. Net result was the same -- owner unhappy about the results of undesired publicity.

This was not an isolated event. We are faced with similar issues with most of our landowners -- they are happy to let us in, but they don't want much more traffic to the cave then that. And, this is not an exclusive arrangement. There are other groups that the owner lets in. We don't think these folks should be let in (they damage the cave), but it is not our cave.

Expectations from the owners seem clear. Thinking that you have a right to publish information about another person's property without their consent is arrogant and flys right in the face of respecting the owner. The self-serving justifications for the right to publish are infinite ("God owns the land, people do not" is one that I have heard a lot in certain areas).

Cavers as land-users have a hard enough time with landowner relations without exacerbating it with a position that basically says that cave owners are irrelevant when it comes to making available cave locations and information that the owner may not wish to have disclosed.

You can probably get away with this readily in Colorado on Federal Lands, but if you applied this philosophy to where I caved, you would be locked out of the caves (not by the cavers, but by the landowners). The big problem is that this type of thing affects all of us regarding access. And, this has been proven time and time again.