Caving insurance

Caves and caving, beginning caving, joining the NSS, etc.

Moderator: Moderators

Caving insurance

Postby barcelonacvr » Feb 24, 2006 10:16 am

Does anyone have any recommendations regarding a travel insurance provider that covers caving? Particularly in relation to the Americas.
barcelonacvr
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Oct 26, 2005 5:23 pm
  

Re: Caving insurance

Postby JackW » Feb 24, 2006 1:39 pm

eramosakarst wrote:Does anyone have any recommendations regarding a travel insurance provider that covers caving? Particularly in relation to the Americas.


Not directly related but seemingly at least tangentially so...

When I applied for life insurance, I was asked if I participated in high risk sports, specifically scuba diving, hang-gliding or rock climbing. Apparently, the insurer would not cover claims resulting from death while participating in those activities. I said that caving can be like rock climbing and after the insurer did its research, came back and said that caving wasn't rock climbing. I agreed. :woohoo:
JackW
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 11:46 am
Location: Denver
Name: Jack Wood
NSS #: 42272
Primary Grotto Affiliation: FRG
  

Postby Phil Winkler » Feb 24, 2006 1:46 pm

In Europe getting caving insurance before embarking on an expedition to another coutry's caves is routine. It pays for the rescue, if required. TANSTAAFL in European rescues.

This has been discussed before, but I do not recall if US insurers ever came to a conclusion on it and that may be because our rescue squads are often volunteers. Which, I think, is another huge fraud perpetrated by the US insurance industry. I was amazed to read how few paid fire fighters there are in the USA. Firehouses and teams were started by an insurance company in Philadelphia to protect the properties they insured.

Of course, if you weren't insured by them they would not put out your fire.

Sound like a familiar business logic?
Phil Winkler
13627 FE
User avatar
Phil Winkler
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2375
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 8:48 am
Location: Wilmington, DE and Dewey Beach
NSS #: 13627FE
  

Re: Caving insurance

Postby Sean Ryan » Feb 24, 2006 3:04 pm

JackW wrote:When I applied for life insurance, I was asked if I participated in high risk sports, specifically scuba diving, hang-gliding or rock climbing. Apparently, the insurer would not cover claims resulting from death while participating in those activities. I said that caving can be like rock climbing and after the insurer did its research, came back and said that caving wasn't rock climbing. I agreed. :woohoo:


I've wondered about this myself. It looks like the only reason they haven't listed caving along with other recreational activities is because they didn't think of it. Jousting's not on that list either, but I bet they might refute a claim if I show up with half a lance sticking out of my chest.

Of course, the caving exemption might be because there aren't that many caving injuries to reimburse. Until caving gets popular enough so lots of people are breaking their legs in caves, the nice insurance people might cheerfully cover all injuries.

Anyone have any first-hand experience dealing with insurance companies over this?
Sean Ryan
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ
  

Postby ian mckenzie » Feb 24, 2006 3:17 pm

Have caved lots internationally, and have never sought insurance. Have never needed it either, which is the most important thing...

However I have caved with Brits who have had insurance for foreign caving.
User avatar
ian mckenzie
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 549
Joined: Sep 16, 2005 9:40 am
Location: Crowsnest Pass, Canada
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Alberta Speleological Society
  

Postby David_Campen » Feb 24, 2006 3:54 pm

Anyone have any first-hand experience dealing with insurance companies over this?

You mean life insurance? The term life insurance offered to members of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers does not ask anything about high risk sport activities and is very reasonably priced too.
David_Campen
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sep 9, 2005 3:06 pm
Location: SoCal
  

Postby Phil Winkler » Feb 24, 2006 4:06 pm

Ian,

It might depend on the country. In Switzerland it was absolutely required for Holloch as it was in France for the Pierre. This was back in the 70s. The Brits at the Pierre also had to have insurance. Hmmmm....who checked?

The AGH in Switzerland who controlled access to Holloch and ARSIP who did the same in France. So, maybe because these private groups controlled access they had a legal requirement to ensure all participants had insurance. Hmmm...time to do some emailing.
Phil Winkler
13627 FE
User avatar
Phil Winkler
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2375
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 8:48 am
Location: Wilmington, DE and Dewey Beach
NSS #: 13627FE
  

Re: Caving insurance

Postby Tlaloc » Feb 24, 2006 4:12 pm

JackW wrote:I said that caving can be like rock climbing...


Do all of us a big favor and DON'T TELL THEM THIS.
User avatar
Tlaloc
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 9:42 am
Location: Tlalocan
  

Re: Caving insurance

Postby JackW » Feb 25, 2006 8:22 am

Tlaloc wrote:Do all of us a big favor and DON'T TELL THEM THIS.


Well, if they agreed then I would not have gotten insurance through them. It was State Farm if you're curious. Now I have insurance through work and if you look through all that small print in agreement, you'll see activities that are not covered. At least SF asked up front.
JackW
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 11:46 am
Location: Denver
Name: Jack Wood
NSS #: 42272
Primary Grotto Affiliation: FRG
  

Postby Crawler78 » Feb 25, 2006 3:05 pm

I got Life Insurance thru State Farm in 1977 and they found out that I cave and they charged me extra. That is the way it is.
Crawler78
New Poster
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Feb 25, 2006 3:02 pm
  

Postby paul » Feb 27, 2006 7:45 am

ian mckenzie wrote:Have caved lots internationally, and have never sought insurance. Have never needed it either, which is the most important thing...

However I have caved with Brits who have had insurance for foreign caving.


Most Brits caving abroad will have Travel Insurance which covers caving. Somtomes it is a requirement but mostly a sensible precaution. I have used Snowcard in the past while caving in Europe. On a trip to Thailand last year, we found the German auto organisation ADAC which offered a surprisingly good package and included caving.

The reason being if an accident did occur (and has happened in the past...) you could well be liable to the not inconsiderable expenses of:
a) The costs incurred as a result of a rescue effort (although Cave Rescue is manned by volunteers in the US and the UK, it isn't in many other countries - and you can imagine the cost if say a helicopter was involved). And b) The cost of medical treatment and medical repatriation. As a caver who broke his leg while caving in India with a friend of mine found to his cost - you cannot fly on a chartered flight with such and injury. Luckly he had Travel Insurance for a very expensive alternative.

It is possible as a result of an accident underground (and hopefully it will not happen) to be saddled with a bill of tens of thousands of Dollars/Pounds.
paul
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 513
Joined: Dec 9, 2005 7:46 am
Location: Peak District, UK
Name: Paul Lydon
  

Postby Sean Ryan » Feb 27, 2006 12:42 pm

David_Campen wrote:
Anyone have any first-hand experience dealing with insurance companies over this?

You mean life insurance? The term life insurance offered to members of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers does not ask anything about high risk sport activities and is very reasonably priced too.


Not life insurance, health insurance. A lot of health insurance plans deliberately don't cover certain voluntary activities, like rock climbing and sky diving. Caving's not specifically on the list, possibly because there aren't a lot of injurious to pay out for, or possibly because it's small enough they've haven't noticed it. It might be the same for life insurance, but since I'm young and don't have a family yet, I haven't looked into that.
Sean Ryan
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ
  

Postby David_Campen » Feb 27, 2006 12:47 pm

A lot of health insurance plans deliberately don't cover certain voluntary activities, like rock climbing and sky diving.

I didn't know that. So if you are treated for a broken arm, before the insurance company will pay the bills, you have to explain what you were doing when the arm was broken?
David_Campen
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sep 9, 2005 3:06 pm
Location: SoCal
  

Postby cob » Feb 27, 2006 8:09 pm

As explained to me by an insurance agent: If they don't ask... DON"T ANSWER!!! If they do not explicitely exclude caving... You are covered. It is legalize, but in this case, it works in our favor.

tom
If fate doesn't make you laugh, then you just don't get the joke.
cob
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 7:54 pm
Location: Ozarkistan
  

Re: Caving insurance

Postby ethan » Feb 28, 2006 1:56 am

JackW wrote:Not directly related but seemingly at least tangentially so...

When I applied for life insurance, I was asked if I participated in high risk sports, specifically scuba diving, hang-gliding or rock climbing. Apparently, the insurer would not cover claims resulting from death while participating in those activities. I said that caving can be like rock climbing and after the insurer did its research, came back and said that caving wasn't rock climbing. I agreed. :woohoo:


I found this ad in a flying magazine last year and it amused me so much I had to scan it:
Image

I was very close to being six for six at the time, but alas I'm only "scoring" a two right now! Hopefully I can work my score back up over the next year or so.

Ethan
Last edited by ethan on Feb 28, 2006 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ethan
Occasional Poster
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Name: Ethan Brodsky
NSS #: 53507
Primary Grotto Affiliation: WSS
  

Next

Return to Caving General Discussion and Questions Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]