3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby NWSurveyor » Feb 6, 2011 8:18 pm

WVCaver2011 wrote:
rlboyce wrote:Beware, if you do not have experience with CAD software you will be in for quite some serious learning before you can make a nice 3D model of a cave with Autodesk software. I would estimate at least 2-3 weeks of learning WITH GUIDANCE if you catch on quickly. I think some of the common surveying software have a 3D feature, and you may be better off learning how to use one of these instead. Looks like Compass can do it. If you're hard headed like I am and still want to give this Autodesk software a try, I would start with the basic AutoCAD first. You can make 3D cave models with this, but again, I'm telling you it's going to be easier using a program like Compass. Once you master AutoCAD, you can move on to something like Maya or 3ds and make a very detailed 3D model.


Ryan, saw that haha. It would definitely take time to learn this process. I already know how to do this in compass but you dont have the option to do anything else like putting names of passageways or locations, etc. However, I really dont have the time to do this so I will more than likely just say the hell with it and not worry about it. It would be cool to do for a small cave but again it would take a while.

The software is cool, but it can only process what's been surveyed and it takes some serious surveying to gather the kind of data needed for that kind of 3D surface topography. I think you can pick up a stationary scanner now for about $50k. Now you need a fairly large computer to resolve the collected data to a point where the software can process it into 3D surfaces, then texturize it, etc. It would be cool if you could put a scanner on a some sort of cave diving robot and send it off to another world... Anyone heard of a guy named Bill Stone? :wink: http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_stone_explores_the_earth_and_space.html
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby WVCaver2011 » Feb 6, 2011 9:09 pm

rlboyce wrote:Wyandotte, LOL, how large was that fictional cave, and just how detailed was that model?? Does anyone by chance have a clip or picture of this model? Surely the character was including the time it took to do all the surveying. Depending on how detailed you want your model to be dictates how long it's going to take you to construct. Perhaps you misunderstood me, but I was telling Allen that it will take at least 2-3 weeks to learn the basics of modeling with AutoCAD to generate VERY rough and edgy 3D models, and with all necessary survey data already in front of him. This does not include learning or using their more 3D oriented software for a more detailed model. Bottom line is I wouldn't consider using Autodesk software to model a cave unless I needed a very detailed model with rich textures and the whole nine yards, already knew how to use the software proficiently and had too much time on my hands. Once more, I'd just go with Compass or an alternative.

Allen, photosynth point cloud extraction and mesh modeling is the way to go if you want to make an accurate model of a small cave. Just need to spend a little time working out the bugs and forming the appropriate techniques. Using any other method is simply lofting cross sections and inaccurately adding secondary features or fine tuning afterwards. We were on the right track a few months ago with meshlab and all that, it's just that I realized I enjoyed digging for virgin passage more than creating a precise 3D model. :big grin:

How did the names appear on the movie model? Did they float as the view angle changed?



Ryan, it would be best if you just go see the movie man. The WVUSG is planning a trip to go see it soon. You should tag along if possible. I could talk about the software all day but it would be much easier if you just went to see it and afterwards we could discuss this.
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby HappyCamper » Feb 6, 2011 10:25 pm

We geared up and headed to the theater Friday night, too. Many silly photos were snapped and great fun was had by all... and then we watched the movie. Bleh : (
I know that I'm in the minority with this opinion, but here goes. Someone out there might appreciate a heads up.

****SPOILER ALERT****

Two days later, I still regret seeing Sanctum. I regret supporting it with my ticket money. It is not a campy, dumb cave horror flick a la "The Cave". I found it pretty disturbing and would have left if I had driven that night.

For anyone who has lost a friend in a caving accident: the accident scenes are graphic. You might want to spare yourself that. I now have horrible images in my mind about what two of my caving companions may have gone through, may have looked like, when they died. Not fun, not entertaining.

For the mother up-thread who asked if her sons should see it: be forewarned that there is a scene where the father is mortally injured in a fight and asks his son to drown him, which the son does.

While it's lots of fun to nit-pick the bad dialogue (sorry Barbara!), the even worse acting, and the gear and techniques, my biggest and most serious nitpick is this: the movie claims to based on a real incident. We cavers know this is so loose as to be laughable -- that's why we all went to the movie, right? -- but what about JQ Public? Sanctum never claims to be a documentary, but will a non caver always know when it crosses the line into total stupidity? Based on some reviews and comments I've read and heard, I'm not convinced they will. I remember when the IMAX film came out years ago, there was a lot of talk about public perception of caves and cavers, and those folks involved went to great lengths to get it right. Sanctum does not, IMHO. All I can say is that hopefully the only folks who find this movie interesting are cavers.

** * Time to crawl back under my rock now : ) ***
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Sierra Echo » Feb 6, 2011 10:32 pm

HappyCamper wrote:While it's lots of fun to nit-pick the bad dialogue (sorry Barbara!), the even worse acting, and the gear and techniques, my biggest and most serious nitpick is this: the movie claims to based on a real incident. ** * Time to crawl back under my rock now : ) ***


It doesn't claim to be based on true events, it says it is INSPIRED by true events. Thats two very different things.

If I was in a situation where I was mortally wounded and there was no way I was getting out, I would ask someone to end it for me too. Why suffer if you don't have too.
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby HappyCamper » Feb 6, 2011 10:41 pm

Sorry, "inspired" it is.

My other comments stand though. I was answering a specific question regarding the appropriateness of the movie for a young child. I am a long time caver, and a mother, and that scene was not what *I* would want my young son to see (among many others!). The other parent can take it or leave it, I was just putting the info out there.

Now, If I were in that situation? Hell yeah, I hope I'd be strong enough to help out that way. In fact, the two "mercy " drownings were some of the the most sensible parts of the movie!
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Squirrel Girl » Feb 6, 2011 11:14 pm

HappyCamper wrote:While it's lots of fun to nit-pick the bad dialogue (sorry Barbara!), the even worse acting,


Actually, I think it was more bad dialog than it was bad acting. I mean how could the best actors in the world pass off many of those lines?

And despite the realism of some of the lines, the way they were strung together and the missing stuff from between them, made it really cheesy.

HappyCamper wrote:I was answering a specific question regarding the appropriateness of the movie for a young child.

It was rate R, afterall.
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 6, 2011 11:26 pm

Rated R usually means people dying and people cussing.... .................. do you expect anything less???
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Squirrel Girl » Feb 6, 2011 11:34 pm

Chads93GT wrote:Rated R usually means people dying and people cussing.... .................. do you expect anything less???


I expected something more--sex! :big grin:
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 6, 2011 11:37 pm

What was up with the farmer john wetsuits anyway. surely thats not diver ettiquate? sp.

and for the air line rupturing and the gal drowning at the beginning of the movie. is that for real? I know nothing of diving except what I read in the blind decent, but I figured that was BS due to the redundancy of a rebreather? thoughts??
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Squirrel Girl » Feb 6, 2011 11:57 pm

Chads93GT wrote:What was up with the farmer john wetsuits anyway. surely thats not diver ettiquate? sp.

and for the air line rupturing and the gal drowning at the beginning of the movie. is that for real? I know nothing of diving except what I read in the blind decent, but I figured that was BS due to the redundancy of a rebreather? thoughts??


Yeah, the farmer johns were a little hokey. Surely done to display muscular arms! But heck, enough movies with girlie curves being shown off. Let us have some eye candy, eh?

Though it's not a bad idea to wear a farmer john in that type of cave. It's just that you'd have a polyester shirt on, or a caver suit over it!

The breathing hose is a point of failure. I sewed cordura covers over the hoses back in '94. They had a thing going where they'd left their bailout bottles behind the restriction. Ergo--they were screwed!
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby LukeM » Feb 7, 2011 9:30 am

Is it me or did Josh's rack switch from his back to his front while he was dropping the entrance pit? :laughing: Also, I loved how it wasn't at all explained how he switched to rock climbing shoes for the climbing scene and then back to boots afterward. :laughing: Thinking back, I think he also went from having a Spelios to an Elios with a headstrap style Duo on it. Also, how did that HUGE BFR at the top of the pit move? I guess it's easier when they're made of Styrofoam. :laughing:

Overall, for a mass-entertainment movie I was actually pretty impressed with the accuracy of the techniques and the lengths went to to explain certain problems they encountered, like when the young woman flipped upside down while climbing the waterfall pit and they showed her chest harness being severed. Also, I'm not sure if it was intended but it looked like all the less experienced cavers had more recent models of Petzl helmets. Also, I'm not at all a cave diver but the problems they encountered while diving seemed fairly realistic and well explained. It seemed like they were bringing the laymen up to speed, rather than dumbing it all the way down.

I went with a few cavers and one non-caver and the guy who doesn't go caving seemed to immediately grasp that the attitudes and dialogue of the cavers were completely ridiculous and meant for entertainment.
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Squirrel Girl » Feb 7, 2011 10:30 am

LukeM wrote:how did that HUGE BFR at the top of the pit move? I guess it's easier when they're made of Styrofoam. :laughing:


I've seen some BFRs move. One time while gardening a virgin pit, a BFR went over, and the guy standing on it would have been dead, dead, dead, had he not rigged a safety rope and been attached. Was alarming at that momemt when I realized what was going down!

On the other hand, even though water can move boulders, it looked like a BFR on a set of rails that slid smack into place, on call. :laughing:
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 7, 2011 10:36 am

Barbara, I have another question then. That underwater bell they were decompressing in at the beginning of the movie. Is that for real or BS, deep in a cave like that I mean, thanks!

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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Squirrel Girl » Feb 7, 2011 10:51 am

Chads93GT wrote:Barbara, I have another question then. That underwater bell they were decompressing in at the beginning of the movie. Is that for real or BS, deep in a cave like that I mean, thanks!

Chad


It's for real in the sense that it's a spectacular mock up of the Wakulla 1 habitat. That was from the late 80s where it was plunked into the Wakulla spring basin. They had some interesting challenges to say the least with the lead weights used to anchor it. But IMPOSSIBLE to haul into a sump!
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Re: 3-D Caving Thriller by James Cameron!

Postby Squirrel Girl » Feb 7, 2011 11:04 am

I just got an email from a fellow cave diver who saw the movie and wrote to me:

aside from some stupid dramatization (jumping into
the rappel), the thing with the broken hose, the idiocy of not using a
bailout regulator and just going to the surface etc, I thought it was pretty
gripping overall. I need to keep telling myself that it is a Hollywood movie
and not a documentary!!!



Though opinions vary widely (like vertical cavers who say the equipment was totally wrong and others who say only a few things were wrong), those of us who've been in very similar circumstances (a few scenes, not *all* of them), seem to really relate.
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