Ownership issues of entrance and caverns on our property

[Unknowngal]

As stated in the subject, we own property with a large opening on it and the property sits over the main room of a commercial cave that has been in business since 1991. The people that bought the property to have it cleared for a tourist attraction initially bought it along with our nieghbors property and home (which was leveled and turned in to a parking lot/picnic area) but they stated that our property wasn't overtop of any of the cave that would be used as the attraction. Fast forward to a decade ago and I began to help conduct tours and also have started doing research and have become very familiar with this cave system and now I can CLEARLY see what part they said wouldn't be used is in fact the entire main room of the show cave. If it were to be mapped I'm absolutely sure it would show this to be the case as I can tell by the layout of the land and while on a small portion of a bridge, you can even see the opening to which is on OUR property. There's water that runs through this opening which is why we can't just walk on in to the cave without being in 44 degree water up to our chins. We don't have thousands of dollars to give to an attorney for this but are saving up for one. In the meantime, is there anything else we can do and what rights DO we have? I know a little about real estate an it states that as a rule you own "sky high and hell deep" so do I have the right to walk in and use the cave? What about if I wanted to conduct further research and bring in other researchers or specialists to do their research? They found a mastadon tooth in the water under our property just last summer and instead of taking it to be looked about they gave it to their PIT BULL TO CHEW ON ! I damn near died and asked if I could have it instead and was shot down. That was the straw that broke the camels back. This place is going to cause loss of future information that could be obtained from the deep water that is in this cave and it's like a time capsule that is a hidden gem in my opinion. I have and so has the business owner, found many arrowheads and other artifacts in the creek bed that runs through the cave. Any suggestions about anything would be appreciated greatly and thank you ahead of time!

[KsCaver22]

My opinion - You need good maps! You need a good map of the cave and also a good map of the properties over it.

A map of properties should be available at your county's web site. Most counties now have all of their plat maps, property parcels and related information on a GIS system.

A map of the cave could be more of a problem. I think the place to start is your local caving group. You can find them at the NSS web site https://caves.org. There may be a state speleological survey group which maintains cave information. The local caving group will know about any state survey group. There may not be a good map of the cave, in which case you have a really interesting problem!

With these two maps, you should be able to overlay one on the other to see what of the cave really is under your property. From there ... Lawyers and $$$.

Bill Gee

[ohiocaver]

Not as unusual a situation as you might imagine. I'm aware of one wild cave in Indiana where the next door neighbor posted NO TRESPASSING signs a good quarter-mile into the cave with an aim to keep cavers from going under his land (how he got to that point in the neighbor's cave is a bit of a mystery since there is no "back door" that I know of on his land). His goal, it seems, was to keep the landowner from commercializing the cave.
Anyway, you are headed down the lawyers-and-money route as indicated. Laws on underground property - from minerals to water to whatever - vary from state to state. I'd get the lawyer first and then court orders to enable the survey on the neighboring land and whatever other actions are required. Note that your next door neighbor probably will not be inviting you to any July Fourth parties. Is it worth it?

[NSS11057]

Property law varies from state to state. In PA, for example, trespass law requires that the property be posted in order to file a criminal complaint, but other states’ laws will vary. I don’t think that the concept of “mineral rights” applies to voids, altho that, too, may vary by state. In my experience, most landowners without an entrance on their property don’t know that the cave lies under them so the issue never comes up. I guess my first question is why you care if people are beneath your property. Do you want a share of the entrance fee? If so, the only answer is “lawyer.” A good property (not real estate) lawyer. My guess is that the best solution would be to sell an easement to the entrance owner, but that will probably require a lawsuit to establish your right to exclude them. Consider whether the 20-30 thousand dollars it will cost could be recovered in entrance fee sharing with these odd people.
The mastodon tooth may be protected by federal antiquities law, which I am not familiar with. I think the Department of Interior has jurisdiction under that law.

[FreightTrain]

"There's water that runs through this opening which is why we can't just walk on in to the cave without being in 44 degree water up to our chins."

Hey man that's what real caving entails.....If you want this bad enough, take the route and prove that you have an opening to the cave. Earn your money

[AdamGrover]

As stated in the subject, we own property with a large opening on it and the property sits over the main room of a commercial cave that has been in business since 1991. The people that bought the property to have it cleared for a tourist attraction initially bought it along with our nieghbors property and home (which was leveled and turned in to a parking lot/picnic area) but they stated that our property wasn't overtop of any of the cave that would be used as the attraction. Fast forward to a decade ago and I began to help conduct tours and also have started doing research and have become very familiar with this cave system and now I can CLEARLY see what part they said wouldn't be used is in fact the entire main room of the show cave. If it were to be mapped I'm absolutely sure it would show this to be the case as I can tell by the layout of the land and while on a small portion of a bridge, you can even see the opening to which is on OUR property. There's water that runs through this opening which is why we can't just walk on in to the cave without being in 44 degree water up to our chins. We don't have thousands of dollars to give to an attorney for this but are saving up for one. In the meantime, is there anything else we can do and what rights DO we have? I know a little about real estate an it states that as a rule you own "sky high and hell deep" so do I have the right to walk in and use the cave? What about if I wanted to conduct further research and bring in other researchers or specialists to do their research? They found a mastadon tooth in the water under our property just last summer and instead of taking it to be looked about they gave it to their PIT BULL TO CHEW ON ! I damn near died and asked if I could have it instead and was shot down. That was the straw that broke the camels back. This place is going to cause loss of future information that could be obtained from the deep water that is in this cave and it's like a time capsule that is a hidden gem in my opinion. I have and so has the business owner, found many arrowheads and other artifacts in the creek bed that runs through the cave. Any suggestions about anything would be appreciated greatly and thank you ahead of time!

What did you end up doing with the property? I have a property in bakersfield