Hanging from one piece

[hunter]

jaa wrote:

We wear mini-racks,

whoo dude, this totally came out of nowhere. A mini rack! What happened Andy? (This is an inside joke incidentally so don't get bent out of shape folks)

Back on topic. I think the only relevant thing I can add is the double check idea. In rappelling I stay clipped in until I have my full weight on the device. There are plenty of stories of people putting a rack on wrong and noticing when they weight it and the bars pop off. Same sort of thing in climbing. You rely on a single knot and belay device but you double check before you start. I have caught myself tying in through only one part of the harness and my belayer has caught themselves with a gri-gri threaded backwards.
To answer the question directly:
I would have to say I am mostly ok with the VT idea because you rappel onto it and will see if it is clipped wrong before you take your rap device off.

Somewhere in there was another question about passing rebelays and knots. I personally always clip in with two attachment points. This is not because I am worried about a biner breaking. It is because of the human factor. I'm worried about being 25hrs into a trip in a frigging muddy cave and making a mistake. Being in the habit of always using redundancy and a double check is insurance against my making a mistake.

James

[jaa45993]

We wear mini-racks,
whoo dude, this totally came out of nowhere. A mini rack! What happened Andy? (This is an inside joke incidentally so don't get bent out of shape folks)

Sorry James, didn't mean to shock you there!

Yes, it is true, I use a mini when canyoneering. As you know, my issue with minis is people using the 2-bar rig to avoid feeding on stiff, muddy 11mm. Not an issue when using wet, clean, 9mm in a canyon.

Not to worry, I will be bringing the the 6-bar bratwurst roaster down to the big cave next month!

[hunter]

:)
Phwew, you had me scared for a minute there!

[Bill Putnam]

How many instances can we recall in which an ascender either became detached from the rope while loaded, or slid down the rope under load with serious consequences? I can only think of a couple of examples from my 30 years of caving. Detachments are extremely rare, and slipping is usually just a nuisance that can be overcome by the skilled caver.

On the other hand, how many instances can we recall in which a connecting device such as a carabiner or Maillon Rapide (screwlink) became detached or opened under load or during use? I can think of several instances immediately that had serious or fatal results. I can also recall numerous instances and reports with non-fatal outcomes. Unlocked or open carabiners and maillons are apparently quite common in ordinary caving. You don't have to be in extreme circumstances such as tension traverses and severely muddy or icy ropes to encounter them. If you spend enough time on rope in vertical caves you will almost certainly eventually witness or experience such an incident.

My point is this: what are we trying to protect ourselves against? A fall, or course. But why would we fall? How is that fall likely to occur? Assuming that nothing breaks (a safe assumption for modern equipment in good operating condition, used properly) we fall if we become detached from our rope. This can happen if the device(s) connecting us to the rope become(s) detached, or if we become detached from the device(s) connecting us to the rope. Which one of these scenarios is more likely? Are the risks similar, or is one much more or less likely than the other?

In the case of an ascender, how could the device become detached from the rope while under load? For some types of ascenders, it cannot. For other types, it is possible in certain situations involving sloping or horizontal tensioned ropes to "lever" the ascender off the rope. There are well-known ways of preventing this, however, such as clipping a carabiner through the upper attachment hole and around the rope, or attaching the bottom of handled ascenders to the rope with a second carabiner or screw link, and of course one should generally be connected directly to a traverse line with a cowstail or similar attachment as well. So the situation of an ascender being "levered" off of the rope during a traverse line would seem to be a case of improper usage, bad technique, and/or operator error. With proper usage (i.e. according to the manufacturer's recommended methods of attachment) and good well-established technique, modern ascenders are extremely unlikely to become detached from the rope during use.

One can make a similar analysis for rappel devices, which I will leave as an exercise for the interested reader. The conclusion is the same: modern rappel devices are extremely unlikely to become detached from the rope during use, when used according to the manufacturer's instructions. (Devices and methods that do allow for detachment under load are available for special situations, but those are not considered here as they are not generally used for normal caving.)

Despite the inherent safety of our rappel and ascent devices, people have managed in a number of well-documented incidents to become detached from the rope and fall while on rappel or on ascent. How does this happen? It happens at the connector used to attach the caver to the rappel device or ascender - the carabiner or screw link. We forget to close or lock them, or they unlock and open themselves in use and under load due to vibration or friction, or the gates break under body weight compounded by the leverage of a twisted rappel device or ascender.

So I would suggest that the thing we need to be backing up when on rope is our connectors - the components of our systems that are most often involved in real accidents due to failure or mis-use. If your ascender is properly attached to the rope it won't come off. And it won't slip or slide unless you are in severe conditions that most of us will not encounter on ordinary trips. The ascender or descender itself does not need a backup. But the carabiners or maillons you used to connect these devices to your harness may come open or twist off, even in a clean dry cave, and even outside in the nice warm sun. It happens all the time.

What can we do about this?

One thing you can do is use a double cows tail, or two cows tails. When committing to a single device (such as an ascender or a rappel device), back up the attachment to the device by also clipping in your cowstail. For example, I clip my short cowstail into the eye of my rack while rappelling. It backs up the maillon used to attach the rack to my harness. The early bobbins were made with an oversize eye for just this purpose, but American cavers never really picked up on that technique, though it is reported to be well-know overseas. Similarly, you can back up a connection to your ascender by either attaching a second cowstail or lanyard during a changeover or when crossing a knot, or you can simply attach a second ascender to the rope or clip to a knot or loop if available, though that typically takes a tad longer and may not be quite as convenient. But don't waste time worrying about the single ascender, as long as you back up your connection to it in some way. And, of course, the same reasoning applies to rappel devices. As many are quick to point out, we don't hear all this fuss about being on a single device when we rappel. It's not the device that's the problem - it's the connectors we use with the device that we should be concerned about.

Yes, there is a risk that an single ascender (or descender) may fail or become detached under load. There is also a risk that it might have been improperly attached to the rope. Based on the record, however, I believe that these risks are substantially lower (probably an order of magnitude lower, if not moreso) than the risk of a carabiner failure or detachment. It is well-documented that people are not good at judging relative risk, and I believe that what we have here is a problem of inaccurate perception of the relative risks. The nice, friendly, inexpensive, familiar, easy-to-use carabiner is the device most likely to kill you or get you killed. That's one reason why many cavers, especially overseas, prefer maillons to carabiners for their personal vertical systems, and leave the carabiners for rigging use.

I certainly do not counsel anyone against attaching a second ascender or clipping in to a loop at the knot, as described earlier. Those are both good alternative methods for backup up the caver's connection to the rope. But I do feel that concern about being connected to "a single ascender" is generally overstated. The real problem is that we commonly connect to a device, whether it's an ascender or a rappel device, with a single failure-prone device - a carabiner - without realizing that it is the most likely point of failure. It is the connector - the carabiner or maillon - that needs to be backed up in some fashion - not the ascender or rappel device.

Cave safe,
Bill

[Ralph E. Powers]

Excellent discourse Bill. Truly.
In my own experience I've yet to see an ascender detach from the rope as you mentioned. I would say that it's a fair guess that 95% of all vertical caving accidents are from human error and the rest being equipment failure, which again can be attributed to human error because of failure to properly care for or replacing an older well worn device. I've been in a lot of situations where I've had to rely upon a single piece, yet I've never worried. I trust the gear and trust my training and experience to help thwart a serious accident.
This to me is the crux of the whole thing. I've advocated practice practice practice time and again to hone and refine techniques and to become so familiar with the gear and circumstances that could lead to an accident. If practice gets boring then crank it up a notch, just a notch so that you don't have the yeah yeah yeah right okay... sigh... it's called complacency and that is (again) probably the cause of a lot of accidents. Some folks watch me as I prep to get on rope and it scares them, yet I am not trembling, I remain aware of the circumstances and watch as to the best of my ability ... everything. I feel good around rock and study the stone that I'm going to be placing my foot on so I won't slip. It may be a quick glance but again this is where experience comes in. If something don't look right at a particular spot I'm not stepping on it. Smooth, cracked or muddy or whatever, my foot won't go there unless I'm bomb-proof on the rope. That and a good sense of balance and one's center of gravity.
Situational awareness, familiarity with techniques, brain training, PRACTICE, good equipment, double checking everything, good personal wear (i.e. boots with good soles and clothing to keep the caver comfortable so not to be distracted), others watching out for you and so many other things.

[OpenTrackRacer]

This is an excellent thread. I love reading discussions like this. They're very informative, especially to a mostly self-taught newbie like me. I wanted to toss in a few quick comments on safety. We all know that even the best equipment in the world can be unsafe if used incorrectly. Safety really starts between your ears. I once rappeled into a shaft and unhooked my Stop to explore a level. When I was done I went back to the rope, re-rigged the Stop and prepared to descend further. However, before that I stopped and carefully looked over my rigging (since there was no one else down there to double check me). Good thing too because I'd rigged it backwards... On another note, someone mentioned self-belay and single points of attachment. We regularly self-belay going up ladders using a single Croll attached to the rope. Not only is it a single point of attachment but it's also not a Petzl approved use for the Croll. With all that in mind, after carefully looking over the rigging, situation and environment we all feel perfectly safe and comfortable using it this way. It's certainly better than no safety at all, not that's not necessarily the best criteria to judge by. Still, even though it breaks some rules, it is indeed "safe" and much better than free-climbing. I guess it goes back to the "Rules aren't prisons" quote.

[Chads93GT]

I recently upgraded to a ropewalker at the MVOR and I went with 2 hand ascenders. I feel MUCH more comfortable doing changeovers on a rope walker with 2 hand ascenders over head with the leg ascenders removed from the equation. Hanging from 1 piece of protection used to be regular for me during practice with my frog system as at the time I only had 1 hand ascender. As I upgraded to a ropewalker I learned the importance of a 2nd hand ascender during the negotiation of ledges, etc.

Lately I have been teaching someone for their first pit cave drop on sunday over the course of the past 3 weeks with the help of another friend that I frequently cave with. We taught him the importance of 2 points of contact at all times, 2 hand ascneders at different lengths, and leaving your QAS attached until you fully weight the rack before the rappel. Even with rapides, or other self locking biners I stress this importance to people after watching the accidental disconnect of the rack and biner video. SCARY!

just wanted to add in this piece of mine while I sit here cleaning out my garage with my laptop on the shelf. Yes I am bored ;)

[ek]

I recently upgraded to a ropewalker at the MVOR and I went with 2 hand ascenders. I feel MUCH more comfortable doing changeovers on a rope walker with 2 hand ascenders over head with the leg ascenders removed from the equation. Hanging from 1 piece of protection used to be regular for me during practice with my frog system as at the time I only had 1 hand ascender. As I upgraded to a ropewalker I learned the importance of a 2nd hand ascender during the negotiation of ledges, etc.

Adding a third ascender to a frog system (and this ascender can be handled, or not) provides for new ways of doing safe changeovers where you are never attached by a just a single ascender.

However, as you are probably aware (and as Bill alludes to in his post), but which some newcomers may not be aware of, even with just a Croll and upper ascender, it is not necessary to rely on one ascender with no backup when changing over.

Here are some changeover techniques that don't require a third ascender. They assume that the upper ascender is attached to (i.e. clipped by) the end of the long cowstail. But they are easily adapted, by changing "long cowstail" to "upper ascender lanyard" for use with "three-cowstail" systems.

Ascending to Descending, Method 1: Rigging the descender above the Croll
This method works with all descenders, but does require that you have a short cowstail (you definitely should!), and, depending on exactly where you clip the short cowstail, may require that the short cowstail be of proper length relative to the long cowstail, i.e. significantly shorter. (If your short cowstail is too long or your long cowstail too short, this is bad in other ways, and you should correct that even if you don't use this method. In the field, you can reduce a cowstail's length by about half by clipping it back to the harness maillon itself, and clipping a free carabiner to the loop thus created. This carabiner then becomes the new "short cowstail carabiner.")

1. Clip the short cowstail to the upper ascender (or to the long cowstail's carabiner, or to the rope above the upper ascender unless the upper ascender is small, like a Tibloc or friction hitch).
2. Stand up in the footloop and disengage the cam of the Croll as though downclimbing--then sit down until all your weight is off the Croll and on the upper ascender via the short cowstail.
3. If the descender is not attached to the harness maillon, then attach it. Remember to close the quicklink, or lock the carabiner, that you use to connect it.
4. Disengage the cam of the Croll (which you can do easily, as there is no weight on the Croll). Pull some slack up through the Croll, and with it, rig the descender and lock it off. Make sure the descender is rigged as high on the rope as possible--there should be almost no slack between the descender and the upper ascender.
5. Remove the Croll from the rope.
6. Stand up in the footloop and unclip the short cowstail. When you sit down, your weight should be on the descender, with slack in the long cowstail. Take your foot out of the footloop, and put the rope wherever you want it for rappelling (for example, many people put it to the brake-hand side of their bodies, so they can get more friction by drawing it behind them).
7. The rest of the steps are the same for for any changeover procedure generally accepted as safe by U.S. cavers: Without removing it from the rope (i.e. as though you were downclimbing), move the upper ascender down as low as possible without it interfering with operation of the descender. Then unlock the descender and verify to verify that it is correctly rigged and is holding your weight. If it is an auto-locking descender, such as a Stop, rappel down an inch to verify this. Then, once you know your descender will hold you, remove the upper ascender. Take care to always maintain a brake hand on your descender.

In the unlikely event that the upper ascender does become prematurely detached from the rope at any point, the worst outcome would be a fall of a few feet onto the Croll. Since you're hanging from the upper ascender, if the Croll becomes prematurely detached, no fall results. A fall of up to a few feet onto an ascender is what would happen in the (much more likely, but still rare) event that an ascender becomes detached while ascending.

Ascending to Descending, Method 2: Rigging the descender below the Croll
This method works even if your cowstail lengths are poorly adjusted--you don't even need to have a short cowstail to changeover this way. (You do need it for lots of other important things though!) This method is less universal though, because it doesn't always work with long descenders. You have to sit down the length of the descender, and if it's too long, you might weight your upper ascender before the descender. In my experience, this always works with bobbins, usually with micro-racks, and often not with full racks. Whether or not it will work with a long descender depends on the lengths of the long cowstail and footloop, which are determined by your body measurements and what feels best when climbing. This method is probably the most common way of changing over from ascending to descending with a frog (though that may be because of all the Europeans who use bobbins).

1. If the descender is not attached to the harness maillon, then attach it. Remember to close the quicklink, or lock the carabiner, that you use to connect it.
2. Rig the descender below the Croll and lock it off. Make sure not to rig it upside down, as people are prone to doing when first learning this method. Rig it as high as possible, so there is minimal slack between it and the Croll.
3. Move the upper ascender down as far as possible, while still being able to stand up in the footloop and completely unweight the Croll.
4. Stand up in the footloop to unweight the Croll. Remove the Croll. When you sit down, your weight should be on the descender, with slack in the long cowstail. Take your foot out of the footloop, and put the rope wherever you want it for rappelling (for example, many people put it to the brake-hand side of their bodies, so they can get more friction by drawing behind them).
5. The rest of the steps are the same for for any changeover procedure generally accepted as safe by U.S. cavers: Without removing it from the rope (i.e. as though you were downclimbing), move the upper ascender down as low as possible without it interfering with operation of the descender. Then unlock the descender and verify to verify that it is correctly rigged and is holding your weight. If it is an auto-locking descender, such as a Stop, rappel down an inch to verify this. Then, once you know your descender will hold you, remove the upper ascender. Take care to always maintain a brake hand on your descender.

In the unlikely event that the upper ascender becomes prematurely detached from the rope at any point, nothing bad happens, because you are never suspended from it with this method. If the Croll becomes prematurely detached, the worst outcome would be a fall of a few feet onto the upper ascender. The long cowstail, which should be shock-absorbing, would (along with the stretch in the rope) help to reduce the impact force of this already small fall. A fall of up to a few feet onto an ascender is what would happen in the (much more likely, but still rare) event that an ascender becomes detached while ascending.

Changing over from descending to ascending is inherently easier than changing over from ascending to descending, because when you change over from ascending to descending you have to unweight ascenders. When you change over from descending to ascending, you have unweight the descender, but the descender becomes unweighted by itself when you unlock it and allow slack to feed through. Therefore, methods for changing over from descending to ascending almost all succeed all the time, even with poorly adjusted climbing systems. However, they can still be compared with one another for qualities like complexity and physical difficulty.

Descending to Ascending, Method 1: Attaching the Croll below the descender
This method is physically slightly easier than Descending to Ascending, Method 2, as you do not have to stand up in your footloop (until you actually start climbing the rope, that is). For short descenders like bobbins, this method is not significantly easier. For long descender is may be, especially considering that you often are changing over when you are exhausted or hypothermic or in some other non-ideal situation.

1. Come to a stop and lock off the descender.
2. Put the upper ascender on the rope. Push it up all the way, so that the long cowstail is taut or nearly taut. (If there is any noticeable slack in the long cowstail when the upper ascender is pushed all the way up, then the long cowstail should be adjusted shorter.)
3. Put the Croll on the rope under descender. Leave a little slack between them, so the descender can be unlocked. (If there is slack in the long cowstail, at least much more slack is needed in the rope between the Croll and descender).
4. Unlock the descender. It is best form to keep a brake hand on the rope and rappel the (very short) distance until your weight transfers to the upper ascender. Then remove the descender from the rope.
5. Pull down on the rope below the Croll to pull the slack through. Begin climbing.

In the unlikely event that the upper ascender becomes detached, the worst outcome would be a fall of a few feet onto the upper ascender. If the Croll is becomes detached from the rope, nothing bad happens, because you are hanging from the upper ascender. A fall of up to a few feet onto an ascender is what would happen in the (much more likely, but still rare) event that an ascender becomes detached while ascending.

Descending to Ascending, Method 2: Attaching the Croll above the descender
This method is simpler than the above method, but requires that you stand up the length of the descender to put the Croll on the rope. If your long cowstail is way too long then (you have all sorts of problems, and) you should use this method. This method is probably the most popular way to change over from descending to ascending with a frog (also perhaps because of all the Europeans who use bobbins).

1. Come to a stop and lock off the descender.
2. Put the upper ascender on the rope.
3. Stand up in the footloop and put the Croll on the rope, above the descender.
4. Unlock the descender and remove it from the rope. Begin climbing.

In the unlikely event that the upper ascender becomes detached from the rope, nothing bad happens, because you are hanging from the Croll (or from the descender, at the beginning). If the Croll becomes detached from the rope, the worst outcome would be a fall of a few feet onto the upper ascender. A fall of up to a few feet onto an ascender is what would happen in the (much more likely, but still rare) event that an ascender becomes detached while ascending.

I am posting this not to disagree with Bill's excellent post about how it is sometimes valid for experts to bend and break rules upon considering the totality of the circumstances, but rather to make sure that beginners who are using frog systems with no third ascender know that they can do changeovers in compliance with accepted safety rules.

I also do not wish to disparage those frog users (such as Andy) who choose to carry a third ascender and use it for changeovers and other such maneuvers. Personally, I find changing over with a third ascender to be easier, and I used to carry a Petzl Basic for this purpose. I no longer usually carry a third ascender, though, because I prefer the reduced weight and bulk of my vertical system. In the now-unusual event that I am carrying a third eccentric cam ascender, I do use it for changeovers. Otherwise I use the changeover methods that I label "Method 1."

Having a third ascender also provides a replacement if you drop, lose, or break your Croll or upper ascender, and you can give it to other people if they have a similar ascender problem. (Of course, if you do, hopefully you know one of the methods of changing over without one.) When I don't carry a third ascender, I do carry a 7mm tied short Prusik loop, which I can use as an ascender if I lose/break/give-away one or have to do a maneuver where a third gripping point of attachment is well-advised (e.g. switching from one rope to another).

Note that a Prusik loop--or any friction hitch--makes a very bad Croll. (The rope will never feed through by itself, and it is very difficult to manually feed it unless you are a mutant with three arms.) So if the Croll is somehow unusable, it should be replaced by the upper ascender, and the now-missing upper ascender replaced with the friction hitch.

[Bill Putnam]

I am posting this not to disagree with Bill's excellent post about how it is sometimes valid for experts to bend and break rules upon considering the totality of the circumstances, but rather to make sure that beginners who are using frog systems with no third ascender know that they can do changeovers in compliance with accepted safety rules.

I am not sure how you arrived at that interpretation of my comments, but I feel it is necessary to clarify this a bit. I was not talking about experts bending or breaking rules. I was actually arguing that the "rule" that one must have two ascenders attached to the rope during a changeover or related maneuver is overstated dogma that has little basis in actual practice or in the record. There is nothing inherently wrong with hanging from a single ascender, such as a Croll. It is no more dangerous than hanging from a single rappel device, such as a bobbin or rack. It all depends on how you are connected to that ascender.

My point was this: the failure mechanism of record is disconnection - not slippage or failure of the ascender. We can back up the connection in a number of ways, including the use of a second ascender or gripping attachement on the rope, but there are also a number of ways that do not require attaching a second ascender (and certainly do not require a third(!) ascender, though I agree that a second or third(!) ascender can make a changeover simpler for some methods). For example, clipping your cows-tail carabiner around the rope above a properly attached ascender (or through the upper eye, if one is available) is a back-up to your attachment to the ascender at the lower eye. If you become detached from the lower eye of the ascender the cows-tail will prevent a fall. This is a common technique outside the USA. Clipping in to a loop, knot, or anchor (at a rebelay, for example) is probably better, but you do not always have that option.

I just want people to focus on the thing that has proven to be the most significant and common danger - our use of attachment carabiners (including locking carabiners!) that can and do open and disconnect in use. Use a maillon, get an auto-lock biner, check your locking biners constantly, back up with the cows-tail (which is what it's for anyway), or clip in another ascender - it doesn't matter. Just don't rely on a single carabiner for your attachment.

And remember: "Don't be a wiener - check your biner!"

[NZcaver]

Bill,

I agree with 90% of what you just said, but I'm wondering about this:

Just don't rely on a single carabiner for your attachment.

Are you talking specifically about a single carabiner attached to a single ascender as your only point of contact, or any one 'biner in general? Is the *average* caver not normally attached by a single (locking) carabiner to their descender/rappel device? What about a clipping in with a cowstail or ascender for fall prevention at the top of a drop? Again *usually* a single 'biner.

Yes - always check your biner! But I don't think multiple 'biners automatically translates to better personal safety.

[Bill Putnam]

I am talking about using a single carabiner (locking or non-locking) to attach to either a descender or an ascender. And yes, most US cavers do exactly that when rappelling. Many cavers outside the US do as well. More and more are switching to using a maillon to attach their descenders because of the rash of accidents in recent years in which decenders have broken the gates of locking carabiners (both scre-lock and auto-lock) and opened the biners, allowing the descender to become disconnected from the rappeller resulting in a fall.

This can be prevented by any of several methods: attachment with a maillon, clipping a cowstail into the eye (or some other attachment point) of the descender in addition to the attachment biner (or maillon), using a shunt or French wrap, etc. For rappelling, I find the easiest thing to do with the descenders that I routinely use (long & standard racks, micro-rack, bobbin, and 8) is to clip the short cows-tail into the eye or attachment point of the descender. During a changeover or similar maneuver, I might clip to the upper eye of an ascender, or around the rope above the ascender, if there is no upper eye.

Clipping in with a cows-tail for fall prevention (or fall protection) at the top of a drop is a slightly different scenario with different characteristics - the biner is not loaded and you are not suspended from it (if you are, that is called work positioning, and you are on rope so see above). But you can certainly make the same argument in favor of backing up the failure point - the connector. Another difference is that the connector is not as likely to be subjected to leverage sufficient to break the gate (or the locking sleeve) since there is no descender clipped into it to exert leverage when the biner is loaded. Still, it could happen to a biner clipped directly to a hanger or other hard connection point, so the question is valid - why not back up that connection as well? Frankly, you probably should (and I usually do).

[Bill Putnam]

But I don't think multiple 'biners automatically translates to better personal safety.

Does anything (including knowledge and experience!) automatically translate to better (or greater) personal safety?

There is really only one "safety rule."

Don't fall.

[Primitivist37]

If you're worried about hanging from a single ascender while changing over (which is a valid concern), why not tie an eye in the rope and biner it to your seat maillon?

[Bill Putnam]

If you're worried about hanging from a single ascender while changing over (which is a valid concern), why not tie an eye in the rope and biner it to your seat maillon?

This is called "tying in short" and is yet another good way to back up the connection. It does take a little more time than clipping the cows-tail to or above the ascender, though.

You have a cows-tail already (or you should). Learn to use it!

[Primitivist37]

I often tie in short when I need to get over a lip when there is nowhere to put my feet. If at a rebelay, knot cross or rope change I usually do use my short cowstail in the rebelay knot or eye of a knot change over.

Another thing that I have bought, but havent got around to using yet, is a Petzl Tibloc. As an extra piece on the line for doing any kind of changover it seems it will come in very handy.